Vote for why you think it jumped
Never Jumped
The 5th Season
The Vorlons and Shadows leave the galaxy
Byron and the Telepaths
The 4th Season
Shark Bytes
Babylon 5 JUMPED THE SHARK with the episode "Deconstruction of Falling stars"
"1,000,000 years into the future my ass"
The Earth War ended in Endgame, and the resolution was in "Rising Star".
We already knew how Centauri Prime would end up because of all the future visions. season 5 totally sucked horribly. Some of the stories weren't bad but after Season 4 ended, B5 became a sitcom. That's why the spinoff Crusase failed miserably.
"1,000,000 years into the future my ass"
The Earth War ended in Endgame, and the resolution was in "Rising Star".
We already knew how Centauri Prime would end up because of all the future visions. season 5 totally sucked horribly. Some of the stories weren't bad but after Season 4 ended, B5 became a sitcom. That's why the spinoff Crusase failed miserably.
Babylon 5 was a great show. There were some stinkers along the way (Grail, eyes and legacies from Season 1, and Season 3's Grey 17 is missing, plus the second episode of S3 with that bomber guy was woeful) but overal the first four seasons were excellent.
They kinda jumped the shark with Sheridan returning from the dead but the fact that his own life was cut short because of that kinda made up for it (and he did eventually die at the end).
Anyway as far as DS9 goes.
If you watch the first two to three seasons, the show was more like TNG than DS9 but a poor copy (Voyager and that other Star Trek show would stoop even lower).
Weirdly the Dominion plot I believe was in response to B5 and probably saved the show. Also I have no problem with DS9 which was obviously influenced by B5. Still that's a good thing seeing that its third rate TNG recreations from its first two to three seasons sucked hard.
Saying that nothing will ever beat TOS.
It was simply a great adventure every week, cool characters, and just plain fun to watch.
B5 was also fun but it perhaps Star Treks more evil brother.
Perhaps the best way to compare is that of DC Superheroes Superman and Batman. With Superman (Star Trek) the oldest character being light and Batman (B5) it's darker counterpart.
Still TOS was great because it introduced us to a perfect utopian future with strange new worlds, whilst B5 introduced us to an imperfect future and strange worlds with big attitude problems and at times personal yet selfish agenda's.
TOS set the standard, whilst B5 updated them.
They kinda jumped the shark with Sheridan returning from the dead but the fact that his own life was cut short because of that kinda made up for it (and he did eventually die at the end).
Anyway as far as DS9 goes.
If you watch the first two to three seasons, the show was more like TNG than DS9 but a poor copy (Voyager and that other Star Trek show would stoop even lower).
Weirdly the Dominion plot I believe was in response to B5 and probably saved the show. Also I have no problem with DS9 which was obviously influenced by B5. Still that's a good thing seeing that its third rate TNG recreations from its first two to three seasons sucked hard.
Saying that nothing will ever beat TOS.
It was simply a great adventure every week, cool characters, and just plain fun to watch.
B5 was also fun but it perhaps Star Treks more evil brother.
Perhaps the best way to compare is that of DC Superheroes Superman and Batman. With Superman (Star Trek) the oldest character being light and Batman (B5) it's darker counterpart.
Still TOS was great because it introduced us to a perfect utopian future with strange new worlds, whilst B5 introduced us to an imperfect future and strange worlds with big attitude problems and at times personal yet selfish agenda's.
TOS set the standard, whilst B5 updated them.
I only got bits and pieces of this show now and then, and wasn't impressed. Then late one night I saw the series finale and thought "that was awesome TV! Lucky I didn't have to sit through hours and hours of derivative hokum to get here". Flashes of brilliance, not worth the weekly commitment.
This was probably one of the best television shows of all time. Very well written, with great humor, drama, and character/plot development.
I voted that it never jumped. However, the show did change a two points for me.
The first is best described by this scene:
Delen: It is kind of sad...it feels like the magic has left the galaxy...
Sheridan: No...not left, we make our own magic now.
Me: Uhhhhhhhhh, John, whatever lets you sleep at night...
The Vorlons and the Shadows were two of the more original aliens ever produced, and their overwhelming power shrouded by mystery was very fun and compelling. The show is much more enjoyable with them in it, lurking in the background.
Also, the telepath war signaled the first time in the series I was bored. Bored. You never want to be bored with your shows. You know when the only reason you are in your sofa staring at the screen is because of habit and rabid loyalty. Yah, that was the telepath war for me. The fifth season was still very good, it wrapped up the storylines for the major characters, explained how Londo became Emeperor. Ect.
I voted that it never jumped. However, the show did change a two points for me.
The first is best described by this scene:
Delen: It is kind of sad...it feels like the magic has left the galaxy...
Sheridan: No...not left, we make our own magic now.
Me: Uhhhhhhhhh, John, whatever lets you sleep at night...
The Vorlons and the Shadows were two of the more original aliens ever produced, and their overwhelming power shrouded by mystery was very fun and compelling. The show is much more enjoyable with them in it, lurking in the background.
Also, the telepath war signaled the first time in the series I was bored. Bored. You never want to be bored with your shows. You know when the only reason you are in your sofa staring at the screen is because of habit and rabid loyalty. Yah, that was the telepath war for me. The fifth season was still very good, it wrapped up the storylines for the major characters, explained how Londo became Emeperor. Ect.
It depend's on viewers expectation. For some, it jumped with the first appearence of Sheridan, for others that's where the best part just started. From my POV it jumped in middle of season five when the telepaths started going nuts and Lochley character moved faster towards complete embarrassment.
We all know that the whole telepath arc in season 5 sucked, but the season is saved by the Centauri stuff. Watching Londo and G'kar develope and change throughout the series and seeing their relationship come full circle at the end is really the highlight of the show for me.
I'm kind of torn over the resolution of the Shadow War. Of course, we all wanted to see more epic space battles, but there was no way that the younger races could have defeated both the Shadows and the Vorlons with the technology they had. Also, Babylon 5 was always about making choices and taking responsibility, so I can kind of rationalize it by thinking that if there was no way that they could win through force of arms, they had to win by asserting that they could stand on their own without the interference of the old races. Thinking about it this way makes me feel better about the whole thing.
I'm kind of torn over the resolution of the Shadow War. Of course, we all wanted to see more epic space battles, but there was no way that the younger races could have defeated both the Shadows and the Vorlons with the technology they had. Also, Babylon 5 was always about making choices and taking responsibility, so I can kind of rationalize it by thinking that if there was no way that they could win through force of arms, they had to win by asserting that they could stand on their own without the interference of the old races. Thinking about it this way makes me feel better about the whole thing.
Again if the suits had let JMS have his orginal storyline, Za ha dum makes perfect sense.. What does MS Saki do? She surveys planets for minerals.. She is a strong headed woman who has been Sinclair's lover on and off for years.. They love and they fight.. Against his advice like she did when G'Kar advised her to go out, she goes to Za ha dum and doesn't return.. Sinclair goes after her.. Yeah, that makes more sense doesn't it? Sinclair returns and he and Delenn get together, there are already significant looks between them in season One.. Yup, check out "The Babylon 5 that Never Was.." Oh JMS did a bang up job with what he was left with. It was great for another two seasons, with the end of the Shadow War it started to go down hill and jumped in season five..
Did Babylon 5 jump the shark with the fifth season and the whole Psi Corps fiasco? Yes. Definitely. Was Byron completely annoying with a personality that was part Jesus Christ, part Charles Manson, and part cardboard box? Yes, this is obvious.
But I would still posit that even the worst episode of Babylon 5's fifth season is better than any episode of Star Trek, with only a very few notable exceptions (and these are from The Next Generation only; DS9 was long-winded and full of its own philosophies while Voyager was just complete nonsense written by writers with no sense of what science fiction even is).
Babylon 5 was about development and change: it was dynamic and the five-year story arch was its strength, which is why the shark was jumped with that arc was ended prematurely and the whole last season was tacked on to no effect. The fifth season was a jump because of its displacement out of the rest of the arc; some plot points where tied up here and there, that is true: but, overall it felt out of place.
Even so, with Babylon 5 having jumped the shark: it's absolute worst, cluttered, poorly-written, and pointless episodes completely blow Star Trek out of the water. And to anyone thinking I'm neglecting the "great genius" that was The Original Series: guess what? It wasn't that great. It was fifty years ago and it was a first for television: an intelligent scifi show. But still, it's time to let go: it cleared the way for smart shows like Babylon 5 and the latest Iteration of Battlestar Galactica, but it's lost some of its relevance. And I'm a guy who knows his Star Trek, but I still say that B5's the superior show (even though like anyone of sound mind, I hate Crusade).
But I would still posit that even the worst episode of Babylon 5's fifth season is better than any episode of Star Trek, with only a very few notable exceptions (and these are from The Next Generation only; DS9 was long-winded and full of its own philosophies while Voyager was just complete nonsense written by writers with no sense of what science fiction even is).
Babylon 5 was about development and change: it was dynamic and the five-year story arch was its strength, which is why the shark was jumped with that arc was ended prematurely and the whole last season was tacked on to no effect. The fifth season was a jump because of its displacement out of the rest of the arc; some plot points where tied up here and there, that is true: but, overall it felt out of place.
Even so, with Babylon 5 having jumped the shark: it's absolute worst, cluttered, poorly-written, and pointless episodes completely blow Star Trek out of the water. And to anyone thinking I'm neglecting the "great genius" that was The Original Series: guess what? It wasn't that great. It was fifty years ago and it was a first for television: an intelligent scifi show. But still, it's time to let go: it cleared the way for smart shows like Babylon 5 and the latest Iteration of Battlestar Galactica, but it's lost some of its relevance. And I'm a guy who knows his Star Trek, but I still say that B5's the superior show (even though like anyone of sound mind, I hate Crusade).
Just read the whole line of comments here, and while I have no basis as to what seson 5 is like (haven't seen past seson 4 yet), I have to go with my instincts and say it's been shark-free so far. The small irritating stuff according to others is something I haven't noticed, such as sets and computer graffics, it matters none. The small irritations some of you have with the story line (the Shaddow war climax, Anna Sherridan returning alive from Z'Ha'Dum, ect) probably all run a little quirky, as others have pointed out, because the original plot had all that stuff happen to Jeff Sinclair. Given that he turns out to become Valen, the minbari leader who gave the Shaddows h*ll 1000 years previously and weakened them conciderably for the future, it stands to reson that the Shaddows would want him to either side with them or have him killed before he gets the chance to go back in time, hence the idea of luring B5's captain to Z'Ha'Dum. How to do that? Send a long lost, presumed dead, loved one, and he's sure to follow! Also, had it been Jeff Sinclair leading the fleet to war against the Shaddows and Vorlons, the whole Valen thing (again) would make them sit up and take notice if he persuaded them to leave. Since the background punch for this showdown had to come partly from outside influence, partly from a change in personality, when it was Sherridan taking the lead (I mean, they hadn't seen what he could do 1000 years previously, had they) it couldn't run as smoothly and naturaly and still make it seem like a huge battle, as was most probably intended. This can't be helped, JMS did what he could to see his vision through even so, I'd say he did a fine job! I'm loving every minute of B5, no amount of bad-mouthing it by trekkies is going to make me see differently, and I'm definatly not ashamed to admit it. For me it's not just a tv-series, it's a small step into the world and interests of my husband, who is a sci-fi fan, and that means heaps to me. No, no jumping the shark for this show, not in my book!
End of Season 4. Killing Marcus and sendind Ivanova away killed the cute part, plus finishing the rebellion and solving everything interesting that needed to be solved in season 4 made season 5 pretty boring.
And Byron... p-l-e-a-s-e! I hate that guy.
And Byron... p-l-e-a-s-e! I hate that guy.
Don't believe those saying this show jumped the shark in Season 5, that's completely wrong.
This show jumped the shark a few episodes into Season 4 when the Shadow and Vorlon Wars were ended in one episode by Sheridan yelling at them to go away, and then they reply, telling him they don't want to go away because they will be lonely if they do. Then Lorien assures them they won't be lonely if they go away. Therefore the Shadows and Vorlons agree to completely cease existing simply in order to gratify Sheridan's dopey will. This was completely absurd and ruined the entire series. The Shadows, Vorlons, and this series as a whole became a laughingstock due to that very premature, very pathetic "ending" of the Shadow and Vorlon Wars.
B5 fans often praise B5 for not using lame technobabble solutions like is done on bad Trek shows such as TNG and Voyager. Yet with this hackneyed "end" to the Shadow and Vorlon Wars, B5 has committed the ultimate atrocity in this regard.
This show should have ended before Season 4 even started so as to not completely ruin the Shadow and Vorlon Wars in that incredibly crappy way. Then the series could have been remembered fondly instead of being remembered for wrecking itself with these extremely bad Shadow and Vorlon decisions, presumably done by JMS.
If you want to see an infinitely more satisfying epic space war in a great story-driven, character-driven sci-fi series, then go for the Dominion War in DS9. It is far longer, far more developed, and will leave you with a great feeling at the end of it all. Instead of the cheated, disappointed, shark-jumping feelings you will get with the atrocious handling of B5's Shadow and Vorlon Wars.
Most of the few great characters on B5 also jumped the shark along with the rest of the series after the "end" of the Shadow and Vorlon Wars. Yet with DS9, none of the characters ever jumped the shark except for Dukat --- but that is only one character, and therefore still a much better track record than B5 in regards to this point.
DS9 also has a much larger number of amazing characters (to the tune of dozens!) than B5 including a very impressive range of secondary recurring characters. B5 only has Londo, G'kar, Vir, Garabaldi, Dr. Franklin and Lennier as great characters. All the other characters on B5 are either mediocre, or just plain suck and are boring to the point of being unwatchable. ie: Delenn after she becomes lovesick for Sheridan and says "In the name of Valen" at least 5 times every episode, apparentely because JMS couldn't think of any worthwhile lines for her to say instead of repeating "In the name of Valen" ad infinitum. Of course during the 25% of her screentime *not* spent repeating "In the name of Valen", Delenn spends that screentime making out with Sheridan on-screen. Clearly the B5 characters had no gas left in them at the end of the Shadow and Vorlon Wars, as demonstrated in this example by Delenn.
For those saying that B5 despite all it's many problems, blows Trek out of the water: that is true if you are *only* counting TNG, Voyager, and Enterprise which are all crap Trek shows that B5 does indeed blow out of the water.
However, DS9 is a masterpiece of a Trek show which completely blows B5 out of the water, and unlike B5, DS9 never jumped the shark. I know a lot of B5 fans have sour grapes about DS9 due to JMS having falsely accused the DS9 makers of copying B5. But you are missing out on a better show than B5 if you let sour grapes based on false accusations hold you back from giving it a try. No way DS9 copied any darn thing from B5, because if so DS9 would have jumped the shark with it's War and characters just like B5 did. But it didn't.
This show jumped the shark a few episodes into Season 4 when the Shadow and Vorlon Wars were ended in one episode by Sheridan yelling at them to go away, and then they reply, telling him they don't want to go away because they will be lonely if they do. Then Lorien assures them they won't be lonely if they go away. Therefore the Shadows and Vorlons agree to completely cease existing simply in order to gratify Sheridan's dopey will. This was completely absurd and ruined the entire series. The Shadows, Vorlons, and this series as a whole became a laughingstock due to that very premature, very pathetic "ending" of the Shadow and Vorlon Wars.
B5 fans often praise B5 for not using lame technobabble solutions like is done on bad Trek shows such as TNG and Voyager. Yet with this hackneyed "end" to the Shadow and Vorlon Wars, B5 has committed the ultimate atrocity in this regard.
This show should have ended before Season 4 even started so as to not completely ruin the Shadow and Vorlon Wars in that incredibly crappy way. Then the series could have been remembered fondly instead of being remembered for wrecking itself with these extremely bad Shadow and Vorlon decisions, presumably done by JMS.
If you want to see an infinitely more satisfying epic space war in a great story-driven, character-driven sci-fi series, then go for the Dominion War in DS9. It is far longer, far more developed, and will leave you with a great feeling at the end of it all. Instead of the cheated, disappointed, shark-jumping feelings you will get with the atrocious handling of B5's Shadow and Vorlon Wars.
Most of the few great characters on B5 also jumped the shark along with the rest of the series after the "end" of the Shadow and Vorlon Wars. Yet with DS9, none of the characters ever jumped the shark except for Dukat --- but that is only one character, and therefore still a much better track record than B5 in regards to this point.
DS9 also has a much larger number of amazing characters (to the tune of dozens!) than B5 including a very impressive range of secondary recurring characters. B5 only has Londo, G'kar, Vir, Garabaldi, Dr. Franklin and Lennier as great characters. All the other characters on B5 are either mediocre, or just plain suck and are boring to the point of being unwatchable. ie: Delenn after she becomes lovesick for Sheridan and says "In the name of Valen" at least 5 times every episode, apparentely because JMS couldn't think of any worthwhile lines for her to say instead of repeating "In the name of Valen" ad infinitum. Of course during the 25% of her screentime *not* spent repeating "In the name of Valen", Delenn spends that screentime making out with Sheridan on-screen. Clearly the B5 characters had no gas left in them at the end of the Shadow and Vorlon Wars, as demonstrated in this example by Delenn.
For those saying that B5 despite all it's many problems, blows Trek out of the water: that is true if you are *only* counting TNG, Voyager, and Enterprise which are all crap Trek shows that B5 does indeed blow out of the water.
However, DS9 is a masterpiece of a Trek show which completely blows B5 out of the water, and unlike B5, DS9 never jumped the shark. I know a lot of B5 fans have sour grapes about DS9 due to JMS having falsely accused the DS9 makers of copying B5. But you are missing out on a better show than B5 if you let sour grapes based on false accusations hold you back from giving it a try. No way DS9 copied any darn thing from B5, because if so DS9 would have jumped the shark with it's War and characters just like B5 did. But it didn't.
This show has never jumped. In fact I consider it a milestone in sci-fi programming with its elegantly created fictional universe and its quality in character/story writing. Story and characters hold together just fine but meanwhile developing also. There was few over the top technologies ( no beaming up , shields THANK GOD ) and fewer special anormalies ( that was why time travel plot was so elegant and good ) but more focus on characters and mainstory itself.
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