Shark Bytes

Great comedy program in the first few seasons. However, like M*A*S*H it morphed into a drama with very little comedy and became depressing to view at least in my humble opinion

When Mike and Gloria moved next door, one of the basic tenents of the series was undermined. Much of the comedy in the earlier seasons was derived from the liberal son in-law, living with his wife's family and voicing strong opposition to the values espoused by his meathead father in-law, Archie. There was always the tension created by the archetypes: the liberal living off the hard-working conservative. Once Mike & Gloria move next door, and Mike becomes a professor, this entire dimension is lost. Furthermore, during the later seasons the series sometimes looked and felt more like a drama with some comedic overtones, than a comedy.

The ironic thing about Mike is that when it came to his wife, he could be as unfair and sexist as Archie. I remember the episode when Gloria was attacked by the construction worker, and he agreed with Archie that she shouldn't report it because it would bring shame on the family. It's interesting how people who are at one extreme in their views can completely veer the other way later on. Mike became a stuffed shirt, 9 to 5 corporate guy like a lot of former radicals in the mid to late seventies.

As interesting as the last post was, I think that I am going to stick to one thing that was said for the purpose of my response. The last poster said that the character of Mike was a male chauvinist. I would be interested in reading some elaboration on this statement. I remember one episode in which he did a double-take at the notion of a woman being the manager of the Mets! There may have also been occasional cases in which he talked down to Gloria. However, I think that the term male chauvinist might be a little bit strog. I would be very interested in reading the points of view of people who either aggree or disagree with this idea!

I don't think the show jumped the shark but in any long-running program there is going to be episodes that stick out as "why did they do THAT?" but to say a show jumped the shark over one or two stories in an 8 year run is strict. I think the Edith rape story was an incident that was did for ratings, which the show never needed by the time that episode aired, but also, the attention a story like that would bring the show. Not that the show needed more attention sitting at #1...but it was simply a social issue and this program's back-bone was exploring social-issues.

As far as Lear's claims. Here's a quote from an earlier post from Tim:

"One of the many claims Norman Lear pronounced was that HIS show, AITF, was the FIRST show to deal with the "issues" he brought forth.
A quick look at TV in that era says otherwise.
Race? Room 222 was dealing with that issue long a full year before AITF.
Abortion? Marcus Welby was dealing with that issue in 1968.
Vietnam? The Mod Squad was dealing with that issue long before AITF.
Sex? By the time AITF came along, several sitcoms were skirting the boundries already, cop shows and medical dramas were already doing sex-related stories.
AITF was not as 'cutting edge' as people claim."

I feel that Lear's comments deal with situation comedy...certainly those issues were dealt with already in crime-drama's and medical-drama's...even soap opera's were putting more skin in the stories by the late '60s. Lear's show is given credit for breaking down the doors because of how bluntly the issues were dealt with...in your face almost...and you used the phrase "skirting the boundaries already" and that's the key line. While the other shows were skirting the issues with a slight commentary here and there, AITF dealt with the issues head-on with blunt language on network TV during that time period and would go on and try and out-blunt each successive season. The British being cutting edge in comedy has no bearing on American TV. The post sounded more anti-Lear than anti-AITF because you went right after Lear at the top of your post like you were putting him on trial for being proud of the show he worked hard at getting on the air.

Not many know that the show was in development for American TV for at least 3 years and I forget how many pilot's for the show that were shot and passed on by all the networks before the definitive pilot of the show was given a shot in mid-season by CBS and even the first try-out wasn't a success. It took a second airing of the first series of episodes before it caught on.

I have something to say about those who think this show was mean-spirited and bigoted. I find those who hold that opinion uninformed about the show as a whole. The show centered around a bigot...so there's going to be loads of bigotry. Archie's demeanor wasn't mean, just angry and irritable. Mike, on the other hand, had his faults as well and it's interesting that a lot of the more dramatic encounters between Archie and Mike, it's Mike who's shown to be short on temper and quick to condemn everything Archie has to say without really considering all parts of an issue. Archie was extreme in his views and Mike the same...and when it appears that Archie is always painted as the wrong one it's only because intolerance is at the core of most bigots, and ignorance. However, Mike often was put on the spot when his views on issues were actually put to a test. When he wasn't arguing with Archie, I always got the impression that the Mike character was insecure because with Archie he always had a sparring partner he felt he could dominate with informed opinions against Archie's intolerable nature but when confronted with people, on rare occasion, that held opposing views but weren't as bigoted/intolerable as Archie was, Mike often came across intimidated and HIS flaws and faults were exposed. While the show was centered around a bigot, one shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Mike was liberal, a pacifist, an atheist, and a male chauvinist...so he, too, had personal issues but Archie's bigotry was the show and it never jumped the shark because that aspect of the series remained throughout.

According to the book Archie, Edith, Mike and Gloria, Lear wanted to end the series when Struthers and Reiner left. One reason why they had Archie buy Kelsey's was to give Archie more characters to "butt heads" with. Once Mike and Gloria were gone, there was really no reason to have Archie at home, because all he'd have conflict with is Edith, and that could get stale fast.

Lear really had no involvement with the show's final season, or Archie Bunker's Place, which was fine by Carroll O'Connor, who always had issues with Lear.

I could not believe it when they had Edith practically raped. I mean Good Lord, they may as well have done that to our favorite aunts. When you create a character people love that much, it limits you as to how much crap you can put them through before the audience rebels.

I for one could not even watch that actor who played the would-be rapist in anything ever again. When I see his face, the channel is changed. Yes, I understand that the actor and the role are different. It's not an intellectual thing, it's purely visceral. In that episode, they really crossed the line.

I always found it interesting that Archie's viewpoint was supposed to be the clearly "wrong" one...yet Archie himself was hardworking, protective of his family...lovable.

Mike's ideology was on "the side of the angels"...yet he was a loafer, a hypocrite...a jerk.

Makes you wonder just which viewpoint Lear was REALLY espousing...

"I am still interested in feedback regarding is the statement 'a conservitive is a liberal who got mugged'."

That is certainly a possibility, especially if brain damage was incurred during the attack.

This show never really jumped the shark. It just ran out of good ideas. The episodes were pretty good until Stephanie moved in. She was atrocious. Not even one good thing about her. She should have been kicked off halfway through the season. Just like in Three's Company, Lana Shields was in 9 eps. and Stephanie should have only been in about 6 episodes. All in all, AITF is pretty good. Better than Maude.

Funniest show on tv by a long shot. Funniest characters ever: 1) Archie Bunker, 2) Al Bundy, 3) Ralph Kramden, 4) Kramer, 5) Denny Crane

People who look back on this show now and think it's "bigoted" or "mean-spirited," just didn't get it.

People who look back on this show now and think it's "bigoted" or "mean-spirited," have obviously never watched a single episode of Family Guy in their entire life.

I would really like to thank the last poster for the support that he or she gave me in regards to my posts that have disappeared! It is great to know that there are people out there who care! In any event, one thing that I am still interested in feedback regarding is the statement "a conservitive is a liberal who got mugged". Take care for now.

Don't take it personally, posts are deleted without rhyme or reason, whether they stay on topic, folllow the rules of JTS, and are civil or not, and so forth.

What's funny is how someone is spamming the South Park boards with posts of random gibberish and fake links...and they're still there. Check it now, they may still be there.

One thing that I am not really finding any rayme nor reason to is what messages stay up here and what get taken down! A couple of days ago, I posted a message about the idea that I conservative is a liberal who got mugged. It is gone! I am not sure if there were one or two other messages in between the last one that is still up there and mine. One thing that I am pretty sure of, however, is that none of these messages contained anything that was vulger or obscene. This being the case, I cannot understand why they got taken down! I guess that since no system is fool-proof, we have to allow for some posts to simply fall down by accedent.